1. 

   Michael Sobczak
   July 13th, 2010 - 14:02

   I agree with Jake. I split my time with WebSphere/J2EE stuff right now, and if I ever get my blog up and running again, I’d hate to be delisted because of mixed content.

   Besides, Duff posts about non-Lotus stuff regularly. I’d hate to think you’d delist him as well.

   Heavy lies the head that wears the crown, eh? ; + )
2. 

   Mark Haller
   July 13th, 2010 - 14:15

   Hey Yancy

   Thanks for sharing. Ultimately, there’s no “truth” and no right or wrong. What the Planet Lotus website set out to do, and will do in future, or does now is up to you – I assume it’s your site and your domain?

   It might make sense to make it a bit more like “Digg” where there are topic categories common across all blog sites .. and provided those tags/categories are used, they’ll bubble up onto your site … so when people visit PlanetLotus, by default they’ll see all blog posts (as now), but if they wish to just see Lotus blog posts, or fireman sam blog posts , or sharepoint posts, they can click and see those only.

   Again, thanks for sharing – I guess you shared as you have no answer and both of you are just discussing how the demands and audience of your site are unknown and Jake, rightly so, goes where his clients take him … and being the god (small g) that he is, he’s able to code superbly in Domino stuff, and no doubt Sharepoint stuff too

   To be honest, I’ve noticed on PlanetLotus there’s been so much other than Lotus posts for a good while – iPad ramblings, iPhone ramblings, recipes from users, all sorts – it’s a growing community that has found a place to talk and people listen and has rightly evolved and started sharing more than Lotus topics.

   Perhaps open up a vote? Or ask for feedback on what PlanetLotus should show? Or just choose yourself – chocolate or vanilla

   Mark
3. 

   Jake Howlett
   July 13th, 2010 - 14:51

   The conversation was unfinished as you left it that way Yancy (there’s 12 hours between my response to you and my blog post).

   From the tone of your emails it seemed clear to me that it was a case of “comply or die” and there was little point in continuing unless I agreed to do it your way (which I wasn’t going to do — I’m not about to change the way my blog works just to suit a feed aggregator – surely it should work the other way round).

   What was I supposed to do anyway? Just sit back and watch you cut off 7% of my readership. Instead I wanted to make sure my readers who rely on your site knew why it might suddenly appear I’d give up before you got chance to wipe my blog off the reading list. It just happened that the blog post I wrote turned out like it did. I didn’t set out for the reaction it received.

   Not sure what you aim to achieve by publishing the whole email thread, like there’s something shocking in there that I failed to divulge in my own post?. I stand by everything I said in them and am not ashamed of anything I wrote. I would note however that you’ve missed out one of my emails, which breaks the chain’s context slightly.

   Like I said to you though – it’s your site so you can do what you like. I just think you ought to do what the users want though, rather than what you think makes most sense. It’s not about me or the ego some might imagine I have.
4. 

   Jason Hook
   July 13th, 2010 - 15:07

   I find myself working in a very mixed environment now with Notes, Exchange, Salesforce and Sharepoint.

   I find the posts from people coming to those other products from the Domino perspective very interesting and are, potentially, as relevant to the Planetlotus audience as straight Domino posts.

   A handful of blogs posting about Sharepoint or anything else for that matter aren’t likely to poison the well. Instead they reflect Domino’s position as one of the many platforms we have to manage and develop on and integrate.
5. 

   Yodi
   July 13th, 2010 - 15:47

   You delist Jake’s site and I am out of planet whatever. It will no longer be trust worthy. It is like delisting edbrill’s site.
6. 

   David Vasta
   July 13th, 2010 - 16:00

   I come from the angle that Yancy has always seemed very fair with his tools. I also think if Yancy is going to de-list people for content then I can think of about 10 people in the 2008 election that should have been removed as well for posting nothing but political content and rampant political rants just to draw more hits to their web sites. (For the record I de-listed my site after I was threatened with legal actions by someone, but I digress…)

   The Code Store has always been one of my favorite sites. I visit the site on a regular basis. We in the Lotus community should want to know more about the dark side of collaboration….Sharepoint.

   I don’t want to take sides but think that the Code Store, being a promoter of Lotus from the start, should have stayed on Planet Lotus, but at the same time would also think it might need to be listed on the other Sharepoint Portal Yancy runs.

   Either way, it seems odd to be heavy handed now, when it never seemed to be an issue before.

   If we apply the same logic then Volker Webber should be de-listed as well, as half of what he posts is of no relevance to the Lotus Community for example. He reviews products, interesting and informative, but not Lotus related. I don’t want to pick on Volker as the entire German Country will come after me like before…..

   You can also look at most anyone on Planet Lotus and find days and weeks when they posted no Lotus content. Maybe they only posted World Cup news? Or Super Bowl or The NRA….who knows. It’s a hard call but I read the email and I have read the comments and it now seems very emotional to me. Maybe we re-list the site and see what happens.

   Just be fair…..
7. 

   Palmi
   July 13th, 2010 - 16:44

   Yancy, Why would you want to move his blogs to PL site ? its not like we are going to go there to read it. I aggree with Jake. You sound like you are on a powertrip. If you have not gotten 25 email from same amount of people asking why is jake is talking SP talk on PL then please do not delist Jake. I like to read about what he is doing and if its SP then SP is what am going to be reading from him. Everything that he has been doing is great reasource for us. Ask anyone.

   PL is a great site and hope to see it grow even more

   Pálmi
8. 

   Palmi
   July 13th, 2010 - 16:45

   I mean SP site Sorry for the typo
9. 

   SouthPaw
   July 13th, 2010 - 16:46

   Come on how hard is it to have category based RSS feeds?
10. 

    Jake Howlett
    July 13th, 2010 - 16:54

    BTW: Here’s the email I sent to Yancy that he missed out the chain. It goes before the one from me which also starts with a “BTW”.

    “It’s your site and you can do what you like with it. But, no, I don’t think it’s fair and it seems like an odd thing to want to do.”
11. 

    Ferdy
    July 13th, 2010 - 17:21

    Interesting. So you are bothered by Jake’s publication of a private conversation and in return do the same thing, in raw format even, blatantly publishing email addresses in plain text.

    Anyway, it is your site and you are free to do what you want with it. Just don’t present yourself as reasonable in public when you clearly are not.

    First, you “target” the alltime pioneer in Domino development and blogging for delisting. I could not have thought of a more poor choice. It is like leaving your star football player at home at a world cup.

    Second, your listing/delisting policy is simplistic. It should be about community value, not brute force keyword matching. Jake’s posts, both about Lotus and other topics, clearly bring value to the Lotus community.

    Third, you are being inconsistent. Pretty much everybody on PL talks about other things than Lotus, say their families, vacation, gadgets, etc. Are you going to delist everybody? No? Instead you consider delisting about the most valuable resource of all.

    Fourth, you “give him options”. No you don’t. You tell him to move or change his blog, an insane requirement coming from an aggregation service.

    Fifth, you “ask him if things sounds fair”. Yes you do. And he answers “No”. It is not about asking, it is about listening.

    Again, you are free to do what you want but I don’t think you have the public’s sympathy or come of as reasonable thanks to this blog post. Despite my ramblings, you do appear reasonable by having changed your mind, but was that before or after this got out of control?
12. 

    David Vasta
    July 13th, 2010 - 17:30

    The more I read and think about this the more I think Ferdy is onto something.

    I think the questions needing answers:

    1. In the last 30 days have you approached anyone else with alternate posts about being de-listed?

    If the answer is ONE then you need to do some soul searching.

    2. Why would you have gone after Jake and Code Store considering what he has given to Lotus and the Community over the past…oh I don’t know….7 years?

    3. Lastly, if I was Jake I would be “PISSED” that you posted a private email exchange on the web without getting a written consent to publish. Why would you have done that?

    Keep Code Store. I love Planet Lotus and I love Code Store. They are both very useful sites to me and my Lotus Life.

    If you need a list of people to de-list call me, I think you know who they are….the self loving wing nuts of the community who have built their own soap boxes and don’t like opinions….again I got side tracked.

    It’s your site Yancy but for the better good of the Lotus Community I would think Code Store stays, in fact that site should be on the short list of “LEGENDS”.
13. 

    Yancy Lent
    July 13th, 2010 - 17:32

    @Jake…

    The conversation was unfinished as you left it that way Yancy (there’s 12 hours between my response to you and my blog post).

    - We are an ocean apart and I do sleep.

    From the tone of your emails it seemed clear to me that it was a case of “comply or die” and there was little point in continuing unless I agreed to do it your way (which I wasn’t going to do — I’m not about to change the way my blog works just to suit a feed aggregator – surely it should work the other way round).

    - Your blog is unable to generate categorized feeds based in post category or tag? Seems like a basic blog option.

    What was I supposed to do anyway? Just sit back and watch you cut off 7% of my readership. Instead I wanted to make sure my readers who rely on your site knew why it might suddenly appear I’d give up before you got chance to wipe my blog off the reading list. It just happened that the blog post I wrote turned out like it did. I didn’t set out for the reaction it received.

    - You’re making assumptions, you were never dropped and if you were something would be done, but don’t forget the first line of this blog post, something many are overlooking.

    Not sure what you aim to achieve by publishing the whole email thread, like there’s something shocking in there that I failed to divulge in my own post?. I stand by everything I said in them and am not ashamed of anything I wrote. I would note however that you’ve missed out one of my emails, which breaks the chain’s context slightly.

    - Just wanted people to judge your reaction for themselves on the raw email. I think you overacted in taking this public and wanted to give others the chance to come to that concussion on their own.
    - My bad on leaving out that one email. I will update the post above with it.

    Like I said to you though – it’s your site so you can do what you like. I just think you ought to do what the users want though, rather than what you think makes most sense. It’s not about me or the ego some might imagine I have.

    - Thank you. I agree, you too should do what you want with your site and you should do what the users want a well. See how that might sound funny. Just for a second, have you ever thought that PL might be a good resource because I don’t do everything that everyone wants? One of the great points Vowe dropped in the mix. Lastly, why would anyone think you have an ego?
14. 

    Jake Howlett
    July 13th, 2010 - 17:34

    I wasn’t going to mention it but, yeah the posting of my email address in plain text did annoy, as did publishing the whole email exchange. It’s not like I didn’t tell the whole store or something and I needed “outing”.
15. 

    Yancy Lent
    July 13th, 2010 - 18:20

    @Michael, id do the same thing if someone consistently posted about Exchange server as well and no i don’t have planet exchange.com

    @Mark, the site is 100% mine and no vote is needed. Notice his is still on PL (was never removed) and I changed my mind about all of this, before this got out of control; something also stated in my post.

    @Jason, agree.

    @Yodi, If Ed Brill started to exclusively blog about another technology I would delist him as well. It’s a topic driven site. We are forgetting one of my errors here. I assumed that he would continue to post on SharePoint. That looks not to be the case. I can admit that and is why i changed my mind.

    @David, I have only approached Jake in the last 30 days.

    @Palmi, when you have to make powerful decisions, sometimes they come across as being part of a powertrip.

    @SouthPaw, exactly.

    @Fredy, I will no longer present myself as reasonable. Seriously, all you points are spot on, some I don’t agree with but they do cause me to think and learn from what I written.

    @Fredy2, The first line of my blog post is correct. I’m on Eastern Standard Time. This all blew up while i was sleeping, so yes, it was based on Jake’s last email that caused me to change my mind, and a little investigation.

    @Jake, You commented the following on your blog: “On your site you say you’ve read through “some” of the comments. Is that a way of saying you don’t think *all* of them are worth the time to read?”

    It is clear this will never end and it’s going no where. You were never de-listed. I made some mistakes, you made some mistakes. Let’s leave it at that.
16. 

    Frank Paolino
    July 13th, 2010 - 18:28

    Here is my take: Yancy senses blog posts that might be better suited to SP site. A conversation ensues that spirals out of control. At first, maybe moving, then filtering, then delisting, then public outing then cries of censorship.

    My thought is the unwritten rule is off-topic stuff is OK as long as it is fun, not MS. So biking is OK, weekend plans OK, travel snafus OK, dumping email for 3 years OK, graduation photos OK.

    Which begs the question if the little circle is the answer? Off topic is blank, 1/2 topic and full topic. Or maybe make the keywords more visible?

    I personally skip a lot of the banter not because I don’t like it, just that I could spend all day reading it and not do my other work….
17. 

    Chris Fogarty
    July 13th, 2010 - 19:29

    I would tend to visit Jake’s CodeStore first and then Planet Lotus.

    Jake’s site has been an invaluable resource over the years and will, no doubt, continue to be.

    Removing Jake’s site from PL will do nothing more than annoy people. I would have thought that Planet Lotus is as much to do with product evangelists as product based content, evidently I was wrong.
18. 

    Nathan T. Freeman
    July 13th, 2010 - 19:51

    Yancy, how dare you publish Jake’s email address in plain text?! That’s secret information that could only be found by looking at his blog http://www.codestore.net/store.nsf/pages/contact/ But now you’ve put the domain name for his consulting company out on the internet, without him even PAYING you! What kind of classless idiot have you become?

    You seemed to have misunderstood the new world order. You see, by creating something that has value to people, it’s no longer yours. Sure, you put your own hard work, creativity and cash into it, taking nothing but the occasional banner ad exposure in return, but no matter. It’s OURS, not yours. You’re nothing but a common carrier now and you no longer have editorial authority. BLOGGERS can do anything they want with their own sites, but this isn’t a blog, so just STFU.

    Maybe if you were as big as Yahoo or Google or Microsoft, you could just categorize and rank content any way you saw fit, but the Lotus community is a niche. And because we’re such an important niche that no one else will step up to aggregate and organize it, your reward is all the vitriol we can muster.

    Move the category? Don’t even talk to me about moving the category. Don’t even talk to anyone about it. The very conversation is offensive. By even discussing the notion of not displaying a blog on Planetlotus.org, you’re threatening people’s livelihoods, because a 7% reduction in traffic might make the difference in paying the bills! http://www.codestore.net/store.nsf/unid/BLOG-20100610-0402?OpenDocument

    And MY GOD! Like anyone should waste their precious time tagging and categorizing posts in ways that make them easier to organize! You’re like some drunken dictator staggering around his stolen palace blasting bullets into the very people that brought him to power, you worthless maggot. Don’t you realize that inventing categorization in feeds is HARD? That’s not even what RSS feeds are FOR! http://www.w3schools.com/rss/rss_tag_category_item.asp

    But look on the bright side, when jungledragon.com finally goes live, you can feel free to post architecture and fashion photos there. If Ferdy points out that the mission of the site is nature photography, you can cry “CENSORSHIP” and rally the world around your cause. Don’t worry about it if he never actually removes any content. If he even suggests that it would be more fitting on a different site, make sure you give him both barrels.

    In the meantime, may I suggest registering planetwhiners.com and listing your blog on it?

    
19. 

    Frank Paolino
    July 13th, 2010 - 20:08

    Jake’s blog is still listed. I am betting Yancy will leave this “hot potato” alone. Maybe he should just wave the white flag, as I really don’t think he intended to do any harm to Jake. To quote a famous politician, “I know Yancy” and this was not his intention.
20. 

    Erik Brooks
    July 13th, 2010 - 21:55

    I like the little circle. I can see Yancy’s reasoning… the bulk of Jake’s blog entries as of late have been about Sharepoint, with the exception of some Lotusscript to help a customer migrate to Exchange.

    That being said, there’s still some gold nuggets for the Yellowsphere in these entries:

    “SharePoint Manager Application”
    - compares to a Domino tool

    “Share My Sharepoint Pain”
    - “It would be fairly easy to implement in Domino. In SharePoint it was a massive headache.”

    “SharePoint: Displaying A Folder’s MetaData Above A List”
    - “I’m sure you’ll agree what I’m about to describe is anything but simple.”

    So I’d say: continue to monitor it. If/when the comments from the Yellowsphere in his blog die down, or it becomes pretty much all Sharepoint with no more “compared to Domino” spin, then consider de-listing. But for now there’s still some very appropriate stuff coming out of Jake’s blog.
21. 

    Nathan T. Freeman
    July 14th, 2010 - 00:05

    Dear Yancy, I realize now I was far too harsh. None of this is your fault. Actually, you’re a super-special magical guy who sweats Hendrick’s and farts unicorns. You would never have behaved so heinously.

    No, the real culprit is Ed Brill. Ed, who showed up at your house with his band of yellowsphere attack kittens, poised to pounce upon your wife and children — could be the only party responsible for you diverging from your ever-civilized behavior. I understand, and I forgive you for giving in to the ruthless, relentless machine that is IBM marketing. We all know how truly aggressive they can be. Just look at all the bodies in their wake!

    I realize now that you would never have thought that when someone says “I am moving to Sharepoint” that might mean that they should be on planetsharepoint.org. That’s just lunacy! Only IBM would have been so vicious and insensitive as to suggest you ask a blogger for his feedback on the idea. Any true human being would have simply twisted your arm to move it unilaterally.

    IBM is SO tricksy that way!

    So Yancy, in the end, I forgive you for floating an idea. It was clearly far too stupid for you to actually suggest. The only person in the Lotus community allowed to propose asinine suggestions is Vaughan Rivett. But don’t worry, if he has any bad ideas, there’s plenty of people around to punch him in the face if needed.

    P.S: You are totally my hero and I hope I’m cool enough to be your friend!
22. 

    Nick Halliwell
    July 14th, 2010 - 00:06

    For my 10 pennies, Planet Lotus is a great place to get Lotus focused information. I use it every day. I don’t mind the occasional blog, re phone and other new goodies, I would hope that they make up no more than 10% of posts.

    There should be no room for SP related stuff as I suspect that most people who read PL are doing for for its Lotus Content.

    If a blog is consistently off topic then after discussions with the Blogger it should be delsted.
23. 

    Mike
    July 14th, 2010 - 02:59

    I’m going to put a radical idea out there – look at the subject line on PL and choose whether or not to read it.

    Accurate subject lines seem to be the norm on PL, so it’s not that difficult
24. 

    Selcuk
    July 14th, 2010 - 04:14

    Hi Yancy,

    Maybe you should just put a checkbox on top of PL home page that reads “Show pure Lotus blogs only”.

    …And make it checked by default…
25. 

    Ferdy
    July 14th, 2010 - 05:11

    @Nathan. In a way, you’re right. This whole thing is getting out of proportion compared to the actual issue at hand. Still, since both “parties” decided to resolve this via the public, it makes sense that people post their opinion about it, just like you did. Just like I did.

    I never said anything about censorship. I clearly mentioned twice that I think Yancy has the right to do with his site what he wants. My post was merely about him not being very consistent and targeting one of the most valuable resources in the Lotus community. Perhaps this is whining, but hey, both bloggers *asked* for a discussion by posting this publicly.

    I’m happy that you even know about JungleDragon though, care to test drive it

    Seriously, I don’t think the comparison with JungleDragon is entirely accurate. It is not an aggregation service that depends on other sites or site owners. It does not affect traffic incentives of the individuals participating. Instead it is a voluntary service that you join after accepting the terms and conditions. Yes it will be moderated. Like I said, I never claimed to be against wise censorship that benefits a community.
26. 

    Ben
    July 14th, 2010 - 06:56

    Yawn.

    (apart from Nathan’s post, of course)
27. 

    Nathan T. Freeman
    July 14th, 2010 - 07:32

    People’s reading comprehension skills seem to have plummeted dramatically when it comes to this topic. Let’s see if I can give the Cliff’s Notes version for all those who have trouble reading what Yancy posted…

    Yancy asked Jake if he thought it would be more appropriate to list his blog on PlanetSharepoint instead of PlanetLotus, both sites being the property of Yancy. Jake said that he didn’t, because he was talking about Sharepoint from a Lotus guy’s point of view. Yancy said he didn’t think that mattered because the aggregation group is about *subject matter* not *personality.* Jake says that he might not stick with Sharepoint in the long run, so moving the listing doesn’t make sense.

    Yancy went to bed, intending to communicate his decision to agree with Jake to him in the morning. Alas, he woke up to find Jake’s blog post instead.

    “both bloggers *asked* for a discussion by posting this publicly.” Actually, one blogger posted his erroneous interpretation of the conversation publicly, basically giving the other no choice but to go public about something that had formerly been a private matter.

    In all this, no action had actually been taken by PlanetLotus. No decision had been made to do anything differently. In fact, Jake’s overnight post quickly climbed the chart at PL. Evidently, Yancy had committed a thought crime by merely bringing up the topic in a private conversation with Jake.

    No, Ferdy, you did not specifically use the word “censorship.” That dubious honor fell to others.

    I am astounded that you think PlanetLotus is somehow in a different category of service than JungleDragon. You’re saying because you actively join the topical photo service, you agree to its terms and conditions, and therefore if your content diverts from those terms, it would be okay to moderate your content off? But if there was no prior agreement, then it is no longer permissible for Yancy to decide what pointers he publishes? Are you going to take that same argument to Google, Yahoo! and Bing when JungleDragon goes live if it appears in searches for “nature” instead of “wildlife?” The lack of prior agreement means there is even less criteria for complaint. You don’t get a choice about how other aggregators categorize you. The most you can do is try to manipulate it with tags & categories; an option that Jake flatly refused to take. (“I’m not about to change the way my blog works just to suit a feed aggregator”)

    (And thanks for the invite to test JD. I’d love to, as long as pictures of flora qualify as “wildlife,” as I’ve recently been taking quite a few photos of the flower gardens in our new home.)

    In the meantime, Jake drops gems like “I bit my tongue and refrained from using the “Do you know who I am!?” line ” and “Yeah, don’t they know who they is messing with. I is their daddy!” into his Twitter stream, while posting in these comments: “It’s not about me or the ego some might imagine I have.”

    Then again, I’d probably have a pretty inflated ego if people started calling me the first “pioneer of Domino” or a “community legend.” I imagine if they started all doing it at once, I might have trouble getting my swollen head out the door in the morning.

    But I’d at least have the courage to admit it.
28. 

    Ed Brill
    July 14th, 2010 - 10:27

    Man, I don’t know how I’d follow that comment. Maybe just by putting some extra catnip out for my attack kittens, since the insinuation continues that I, or my employer, are somehow “behind this” despite Yancy’s email thread clearly showing that this was just Yancy trying to be …. logical.
29. 

    Andy Donaldson
    July 14th, 2010 - 10:59

    Wow, Nathan. Thanks for putting into words the same stream of thought that I was thinking all day yesterday.
    And Ed, I always did picture you kind of like the Sith Lord behind the scenes. Oh well, guess I need to come up with some other mental image for your role in the Lotus world
30. 

    Ferdy
    July 14th, 2010 - 12:43

    @Nathan. You make good points. Dont confuse reading comprehension skills with opinion though. Since both gents seem to present the story entirely differently, it goes to show that this is not about reading comprehension. It is about perspective.

    I think the heart of the discussion, which btw I care far less about then one might think because of my active commenting, is in the sphere of emotions, not fact. Opinions stated here and on Jake’s blog are opinions, I surely hope they are not perceived as attacks.

    The more tangible part of the discussion is about ownership. Yes, any service owner is free to do what he wants within the constraints of the law. With or without prior agreement. Legally that is completely true. And then there is the extra element of good ethics, sound decision making and serving your customers best. I think this is the part that is up for debate in this matter. The debate has been brought online and different people have different opinions about it. Big deal.

    Anyway, I’m going to pull back from this discussion now. I need to get a working JungleDragon alpha environment working so you can upload flora pics into it. They’re allowed. Keep an eye on my blog over the next weeks.
31. 

    GerryS
    July 14th, 2010 - 14:18

    Geeez…. Too much drama(a far too frequent occurrence in the Lotus community).

    Jake’s site has great content that has helped many a developer over the years go from “crappy” notes-style websites to professional looking websites. I think it was a little premature to talk about delisting, but whatever.

    It seems to be over, so we don’t need the long-winded attention posts anymore. Both Yancy and Jake provide some great value to our community. Thx to both of you.
32. 

    Mister Developer
    July 16th, 2010 - 10:28

    Guess what Mr Planet you are nothing Jake is a huge asset to the community who almost everyone has a large debt to ….. You are a fool
33. 

    Yancy Lent
    July 16th, 2010 - 12:49

    @Mister Developer, thank you for visiting my Planet before reading this.

Leave a comment